As a lot of you know, I work at the Ramona Sports Store (next to Stater Bros.) here in Ramona.

So far, the work environment has been excellent! I have good employers, a usually friendly clientelle (spelling?), and I even get to do some CrossFit on the job. I.e. cleaning 50lb boxes, climbing a ladder with the box held overhead, and then pushing the box wherever it needs to go. That’s a normal day. Last Saturday was not normal.

We have had a few customers who have made problems in the store. Usually, it’s a one time occurence. In some cases, it’s not.

We have one customer who comes down the hill every once-in-a-while to buy “supplies” for his “lodge” up in the Julian hills. This individual comes into our store about once a month and always makes a >$100 purchase; always on SoftAir guns.

To date, he’s bought 3 SoftAir guns from our store. The first two guns he returned within a week stating the guns were defective. We inspected the gun, and following the manufacturer’s protocol, we ok’d the return through them before taking the guns back.

Turns out the first gun he bought and returned had been abused. It was pretty much the same story with the second gun. The CO2 canister had been screwed in too tight but the gun was still operable. Both times the customer made a huge issue about us selling him defective merchandise and demanded that we have a replacement gun for him within a week. We tried to accommodate him the first two times, and we were able to settle the issue without much more ado. However, when he tried to return his third purchase, I was more than a little suspicious. I inspected the gun and found the whole receiver was cracked. Not something that would normally get by factory inspectors. I called my employer on the phone, related the situation, and he told me not to accept the merchandise back and to give the customer the number for AirSoft customer service. At this point, all the customer had to do was take the number, call the factory, explain his problem, and they probably would have set him up with a new gun. That, however, was not satisfactory according to his standards.

When I told the customer that he would have to deal directly with the factory for any defective products, he became agitated and repeatedly demanded we replace his “defective” item with a new one. I replied I was unable to accommodate him and that if he wanted to pursue the matter he would have to come back when the manager was present. He remained persistent and demanded that I give him a new SoftAir gun. I told him it wasn’t going to happen.

At this point the customer threatened to take his business elsewhere and tell his relations not to do business with us. At this point, my employer and I didn’t care if we didn’t see this person or his business again. I told him to feel free to take his business elsewhere.

He became extremely agitated at this point and began taunting me “come around that counter and I’ll show you!”. I stared at this little psycho (5’ 2”, native American, salty beard, no front teeth, small stature) and didn’t believe what I was hearing. Him threatening me? I decided the best thing to do would be to help some other customers in the back of the store and remove myself from this odd situation. As I left the cashier station the little man began approaching me saying “I’ll show you… ya I’ll show you”. I stopped half-way to the back of the store and watched the little man approach. He wasn’t walking with raised fists and didn’t show any physical signs that he wanted a fight, but I couldn’t be sure. When he got within kicking range one of his “relatives” (two other people, one teen and one senior came into the store with the little man, but didn’t have any previous role) pulled him back saying “you don’t want to get in trouble with the police”. The little man began to yell obscenities. I dialed 9-1-1 and reported a customer causing a disturbance and threatening violence. When the little man and his cronies saw me on the phone, they hurriedly left the store.

So… looking back on the situation, what should I have done differently? First thing that comes to mind is that I should have called 9-1-1 as soon as the customer threatened violence (while I was still behind the counter). Second, should I have assumed a fighting stance when the little man approached me? I was mentally reviewing all the attacks I had at my disposal (elbow, hammerfist, sidekick, etc.) from my position (looking over right shoulder at unruly customer). Would it have encouraged a fight had I faced him and assumed a fighting stance? Also, if someone approaches you saying “I’ll show you” in a malicious way, do I have the right to strike when he comes within striking distance?

Anyway, just thought I’d throw that out for discussion.

I will defer to the experts on the attack stance plan etc..

But what caught my eye right away was the fact that you asked “Do I have a right to….?” 
The legal aspect of Self Defense is a virtual nightmare.  I would not want to go to jail, however if some one threatens my person or my family
I will respond ” I was in fear for my life and so defended myself”

It bothers me that someone can be prosecuted for inciting a riot but not for inciting a fight.  I would think verbal threats movements in your direction should be considered dangerous… and you should respond appropriately- but the laws.. well they are a bit nuts.

Large Lefty- others   anyone ???

The legal aspect of Self Defense is a virtual nightmare. I would not want to go to jail, however if some one threatens my person or my family
I will respond ” I was in fear for my life and so defended myself”

You hit it exactly.

I’m also wrestling with the question of whether or not I assessed the threat correctly. That man could have been hiding a gun or a knife under his shirt and I probably wouldn’t have known. However, in the same line of thought, if I had been thinking from the start “this person probably has a knife on his belt and I doubt he’d hesitate to use it” I probably would have taken action before he got within kicking range.

I’m probably way overthinking this, but it does bring up some interesting questions…

Kman,
Don’t be hard on yourself.  First rule of Krav Maga is what?  Go home safely.  It sounds to me like you acted calmly and handled the situation in an appropriate manner.

If you’re curious look up 415.3 PC (California Penal Code) and the “heat of the moment” defense. I agree with the philosophy of going home. Much more important than legal dogma.

Good job John. When fights don’t have to happen, it’s better in the long run. Usually it’s frustrating to think about the situation later...punch that guy in the face..., but it saves you trouble. Too bad he didn’t attack you.

Too bad he didn’t attack you.

I knew you’d say something like that.

Gdawg and Kodiak, thanks for the advice. I guess going home safely is the goal of Krav Maga… That’s a good way of looking at it. I just want to be sure that if I ever was in a situation that did justify fighting that I’d be able to readily identify it as such.

Thanks for the replies all!

You did fine John.
Yes you probably should have dialed 911 while you were still behind the counter, but it all worked out. (next time)

The fighting stance? Remember you can be very ready to level someone without showing him an aggressive fighting position. Just be ready mentally.

Good job!

John,
Here are a few things to think about. 
First, you had a lot on your plate when this occurred.  You are concerned about your employer, other employees, customers, the store.  On top of this there are important facts which make it difficult for you, individually to discern a proper course of action.  Namely, your youth and the environment you grew up in.  There are also external stressors which make the descion difficult, ie. what are the legal ramifications? 
Someone once said to me when I was facing a difficult decision and could not decide which option I should choose, “Which is worser”?
Almost every hard descion in life can be made easy by examining it in the light of that little question.

I’ll remember that…

Thanks Sifu!

Sorry john Kinda with lucky dawg on that one.  I was waiting to hear about the attack, but glad your ok

Want to make sure my post was not misinterpreted.
The legal stuff is really just background noise if you are confronted with protecting yourself.  If someone was coming towards me while making threatening comments, I would go forward -into the fight.
The hard part is for any one of us to know how threatened you felt.
There are all kinds of subconscious assessments you were probably making about the situation while it was happening.
Sifu Jeff once told me don’t let someone threatening get within 6 feet.
I think this is a good ruleto follow.

John I propose a new title for this thread…Interesting Encounter just doesn’t reflect the situation..
Something like “Creepy man Gets angry in my Store”
Or ” Bad Man Bad attitude wants customer service”
or..“How do I get the %^$$#** to leave ?”

Anybody remember the first Lethal Weapon movie.  The first scene where Mel Gibson is in the Christmas Tree lot?  When his cover is blown he loses it acts crazy and suddenly his gun is out.  Always been a big fan of crazy.  Developing the I am going to go totally nuts in about half a second look goes a long way towards stopping aggression.

A couple years ago when we were in the old place.  A guy came in who was about 6’3” and 300#.  Mikki went over to talk with him, I was in the back area.  I have a rule that if someone just walks onto the mat while we are teaching they are going to be trouble.  Well I looked over and here he was just advancing on Mikki and moving on to the Mat.  I start towards him with my best “I’m crazier than you look on my face.”  When he realized that I wasn’t going to slow down when I got to him he started backing up quickly I kept coming at him, muttering to myself, and he was soon off balance and tripping backwards over his feet.  I caught movement out of the corner of my eye and turned realized he had a buddy coming up behind me.  I lunged at him and yelled from about an inch away from his face “ARE WE GOING TO HAVE A PROBLEM”.  I thought he was going to wet himself.  They both ran out the door.  Crazy works.

John,
Here are a few things to think about.
First, you had a lot on your plate when this occurred. You are concerned about your employer, other employees, customers, the store. On top of this there are important facts which make it difficult for you, individually to discern a proper course of action. Namely, your youth and the environment you grew up in. There are also external stressors which make the descion difficult, ie. what are the legal ramifications?
Someone once said to me when I was facing a difficult decision and could not decide which option I should choose, “Which is worser”?
Almost every hard descion in life can be made easy by examining it in the light of that little question.

John, 

I have been wrestling with your dilemma and must tell you first and formost that what you did was the likely response for all if we were in you shoes!!

I concur with several things and GD stated above.  I have discussed this at length with him and told him how much I can identify with your situation.  I too was raised here in Ramona, but 25+ years ago when danger seemed even more remote.  I can say with certainty that I would have reacted in a very similar manner at your age and under those circumstances.

I think the difference between us is that when I was your age I did not have the ability to question my actions as being appropriate.  You have been enlightened by your participation in Krav.  You have been taught to review and dissect your actions.  This is a great thing!!  Your recognition of alternate courses of action is, in my opinion, part of the bigger picture.  You are taking the time and effort to learn from every experience and to be critical in those areas you feel you could have done better.  This is a big step and you should be applauded for your willingness to not only question yourself, but allow others to put in their two cents.

I can also tell you that with age and life expierence, your actions will change.  Lately, I seem to thinking about being much more aggressive.  Not that I am necessarily “looking” for a fight, but rather I have given myself permission to react violently if necessary.  I think that this is a big hurdle for all of us to get over.  We spend our lives asking permission for things and the ability of “letting go” sometimes seems foriegn.  This mental aspect of giving yourself permission minimizes the processing time for GD’s which is worser scenario.  In immediate life and death decisions, I believe, that having made this decision previously will be a huge benifit to me.  I think this mental preperation also changes your preception of danger.

In contrast to Lucky Dawg, I think that this person did “attack” you!  Now, I am not suggesting that you should have done anything different.  My hope is that you understand that you don’t have to wait for the guy to make physical contact with you to react physically.  I can tell you that officers I supervise stuggle with this everyday too!  You will often hear older officers say it is better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6.  There is some validity to such a saying.

Your experience outlined above is just that, an experience.  It is one to be learned from and you have taken steps to do this.  You have shown great maturity in sharing this experience and I thank you for doing so!

LargeLefty, thanks for your words of wisdom! I’m extremely grateful to all the BrandX community who’ve given me input on my experience. You guys are all awesome! Not intending to sound cheesy, but training with everybody at BrandX is an honor; and those aren’t empty words. The sense of comradery, honor, and genuine care for one another’s well-being is incredible. I can’t say enough good stuff about you guys!

LargeLefty, your post really hits home. The natural instinct to “be nice” and not hurt people still runs strong in most civilized people (which is probably a good thing). In fact, it runs so strong, that without training, many people cannot even bring themselves to defend themselves when attacked. It’s the main topic of the book On Killing by Lt. Col. David Grossman. The book offers interesting insight into the mental blocks that prevent normal or otherwise untrained humans from purposely hurting other individuals. It shows how the military has to work around these mental blocks to turn ordinary men into soldiers who are capable of taking a life in combat. I’ve read it once and should probably read it again. If you’d like to read it, let me know and I’ll bring it into BrandX for yah. I’d like to hear what you think about it.

You have been enlightened by your participation in Krav. You have been taught to review and dissect your actions. This is a great thing!! Your recognition of alternate courses of action is, in my opinion, part of the bigger picture. You are taking the time and effort to learn from every experience and to be critical in those areas you feel you could have done better. This is a big step and you should be applauded for your willingness to not only question yourself, but allow others to put in their two cents.

Which makes me all the more grateful for the instructors at BrandX and all the students who have helped me in my training during the last two years. I can’t imagine what I’d be without my training…