FirmDancer - 12 September 2010 07:17 AM

Metric - 12 September 2010 12:12 AM

(and yes I’m going to mention that, often, Kelly featuring my balls in a video is a bit of fame worth claiming. And yes I could have phrased that better, but it’s funnier that way. )

Metric, What ?!?!?

http://www.crossfitbrandx.com/index.php/forums/viewreply/212826/

Metric - 12 September 2010 04:59 PM

FirmDancer - 12 September 2010 07:17 AM

Metric - 12 September 2010 12:12 AM

(and yes I’m going to mention that, often, Kelly featuring my balls in a video is a bit of fame worth claiming. And yes I could have phrased that better, but it’s funnier that way. )

Metric, What ?!?!?

http://www.crossfitbrandx.com/index.php/forums/viewreply/212826/

I’m afraid to look ...

FirmDancer - 13 September 2010 12:35 AM

Metric - 12 September 2010 04:59 PM

FirmDancer - 12 September 2010 07:17 AM

Metric - 12 September 2010 12:12 AM

(and yes I’m going to mention that, often, Kelly featuring my balls in a video is a bit of fame worth claiming. And yes I could have phrased that better, but it’s funnier that way. )

Metric, What ?!?!?

http://www.crossfitbrandx.com/index.php/forums/viewreply/212826/

I’m afraid to look ...

That’s sig line material…

I have jacked (seriously) meniscus, and the feet forward knees out relives the pressure and popping that normally happens when I squat. No post squatting spiciness either.

If you look at Rip’s stuff, he recommends a similar positioning. For the trainee looking down, I find that the perception is that the feet are forward and knees are out, but in reality, with the weight on the heels, the toes creep out and everything lines up nicely when viewed from other angles. Feet at a 45 degree angle (like I used to squat) is alright if you have the flexibility to maintain that 45º plus leg angle at the bottom.

Bill Starr deadlifted like that too.

dnittler - 13 September 2010 07:20 PM

I have jacked (seriously) meniscus, and the feet forward knees out relives the pressure and popping that normally happens when I squat. No post squatting spiciness either.

If you look at Rip’s stuff, he recommends a similar positioning. For the trainee looking down, I find that the perception is that the feet are forward and knees are out, but in reality, with the weight on the heels, the toes creep out and everything lines up nicely when viewed from other angles. Feet at a 45 degree angle (like I used to squat) is alright if you have the flexibility to maintain that 45º plus leg angle at the bottom.

Bill Starr deadlifted like that too.

That’s interesting, I didn’t pick that up from Rip’s stuff and if asked would have said he recommended a 30-45 degree angle . I’ll go look again, thank-you.

You’re right. Rip calls for 30º in Starting Strength.

His athlete on Page 14, Fig 2-8 in the goblet squat is slightly more straight forward than that (it looks to me).

The same athlete on the same page in Fig. 2-9 looks to be turned out more than 35º.

“We will use a fairly neutral foot placement, with the heels about shoulder width apart, the toes pointed out at about 30 degrees…”

I suppose I squat closer to his depiction of the deadlift.

Louie recommends toes straight forward unless the person has flexibility issues.  But if you spend a couple hours watching the videos of their guys squatting you see they all have their toes pointed out.

Garddawg - 20 September 2010 11:55 AM

Louie recommends toes straight forward unless the person has flexibility issues.  But if you spend a couple hours watching the videos of their guys squatting you see they all have their toes pointed out.

I did just that, well 20 minutes anyway, this morning after a video was posted and someone was saying that, “you will never see a big powerlifter squat any different”, referring to a toes forward squat.

I’ve watched a lot of big squatters on video and a few medium level (but big for NZ) in person and I can’t find one who squats toes forward. Even Fred Hatfield in his first 1000 pounder with that narrow stance or Ed Coan in his relatively narrow squat by today’s standard had their toes out about 30 degrees.

Do you have any thoughts on why Louie recommends one thing and all his lifters, and most of the rest of the world, do something different?
Do they all have flexibility issues and if so why haven’t they addressed them to become better lifters if toes forward is a better technique?

I confess this is starting to bother me.

If it’s better, fine.
If it’s more anatomically correct, fine.

But to justify it using inaccurate information is just wrong and somewhat upsetting.

Rip told me once that everyone lifted big deads from the position (Shoulders over the bar) he recommends.  I didn’t believe him.  So I stayed up almost a whole night downloading deadlift videos.  In the end I had to call Rip and tell him he was right.  So far I don’t see that here.  Not saying I won’t try it, or that KStar may have found it useful to fix stuff, just saying I don’t see it when I look at WR squats.

Garddawg - 20 September 2010 12:50 PM

Rip told me once that everyone lifted big deads from the position (Shoulders over the bar) he recommends.  I didn’t believe him.  So I stayed up almost a whole night downloading deadlift videos.  In the end I had to call Rip and tell him he was right.  So far I don’t see that here.  Not saying I won’t try it, or that KStar may have found it useful to fix stuff, just saying I don’t see it when I look at WR squats.

Me either.

Based on what you said and some quick Googling I’ve found the articles you refer to where Louie recommend a toes forward stance (well some of them)
http://westside-barbell.com/westside-articles/PDF.Files/04PDF/Box Squatting.pdf
http://westside-barbell.com/westside-articles/PDF.Files/02PDF/The Squat Workout.pdf

And Dave Tate goes into more detail here about why people should choose toes out.
http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/training-articles/efs-classic-squatting-from-head-to-toe/

I find it awkward as all get out, but then that’s me and squatting in general. However it has stopped my knees hurting which has enormous value in its own right and I am starting to feel more solid in the position with light weights.
I still disagree with the comment that it’s common practise amongst elite lifters though, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be I guess.

Anyway by Dave’s criteria I more than qualify weight-wise to use a toes forward stance.

Very interesting.

I have encountered two situations where teachers consistently teach you to move one way but in practice they do something else entirely.

The first is in music conducting. Music schools teach that the movement of the baton is a downward motion like tapping a pencil on desk. When the pencil hits the desk, or in this case when the baton hits the bottom of the motion, that’s supposed to be “one”. They all teach it that way in classes. Not so in practice. In fact, it’s the exact opposite. ALL conductors indicate the beat with the UP motion of their baton. All of them. Pause that pencil on the desk. Then raise it up sharply. That sudden rising motion - NOT the bottom of the motion like they teach in music school - is the ictus, the indication of the beat, beat “one”. Any musician following the conductor by watching for the exact bottom of the motion is going to be ahead of everyone else and looking for a new job quick.

The second is dance, specifically the waltz. In waltz they teach you to lower on beat “one”, stay level on beat “two” and rise on beat “three”. This motion is called “rise and fall” and is considered a critical character of the dance. If there isn’t rise and fall, it isn’t waltz. However, what happens with all but the very best dancers is that they rise on beat “two” and stay up through beat three or even dump on beat three. So I’ve seen numerous instructors talk about rising on beat “three” yet watch them pop up on beat “two” and then dump beat “three”. 

The difference between the muscians and the dancers is that the musicians don’t know any better—they’re not skilled at observing motion—while the dancers know it’s wrong but can’t always help themselves.

So the moral of the story is that sometimes teachers say one thing yet do another.

Good points Linc.  Have a few of my own from the fight trade I will share when time permits.  Looking at a couple of videos I cant help but wonder if there is an unaccounted for bracing of the foot against the power rack which might cause some different power dynamics.

Garddawg - 21 September 2010 08:04 PM

Good points Linc.  Have a few of my own from the fight trade I will share when time permits.  Looking at a couple of videos I cant help but wonder if there is an unaccounted for bracing of the foot against the power rack which might cause some different power dynamics.

I saw that too, the contact with the rack in some cases, but didn’t consider that it might impact the efficiency of the lift. It could well do.